<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Modeling Wars. Great.</title>
	<atom:link href="http://elegantcode.com/2008/04/10/modeling-wars-great/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://elegantcode.com/2008/04/10/modeling-wars-great/?utm_source=rss&#038;utm_medium=rss&#038;utm_campaign=modeling-wars-great</link>
	<description></description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 07 Feb 2012 23:42:00 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.5</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: dcarver</title>
		<link>http://elegantcode.com/2008/04/10/modeling-wars-great/comment-page-1/#comment-19700</link>
		<dc:creator>dcarver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Apr 2008 15:50:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://elegantcode.com/2008/04/10/modeling-wars-great/#comment-19700</guid>
		<description>@Jarod

I agree some of the templates are the weakness of EA (although I undesrstand it is better in 7.1).   Too say they are not the same as MDD-&gt;DSL is accurate.  By definition MDD is much closer to the specific language you are using.  However, all that aside once the import is complete (or your model definition is at the point where you can generate code) the roundtrip enginerring between EA and the language of choice is pretty much automatic.

My problem with this is that kind of defeats the purpose of the model which is to abstract the solution at a higher level to take a look at the overall patterns and architecture.

As for Folwers comments I agreed with him when his article was written 3 years ago. Now I belive the languages and tools have invalidated his arguments against UML PIM.

In order to define a successfull Enterprise LOB you must take into account all architectures that could be helpful to you.  At that level a Language Specific modelling tool like a DSL is too close to a given architecture and solution to help.  I think the abstraction of UML helps define better applications.

BPML and BPEL are the tools that help define a better busines process.  I think EA has done a good job on incorporating those.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Jarod</p>
<p>I agree some of the templates are the weakness of EA (although I undesrstand it is better in 7.1).   Too say they are not the same as MDD->DSL is accurate.  By definition MDD is much closer to the specific language you are using.  However, all that aside once the import is complete (or your model definition is at the point where you can generate code) the roundtrip enginerring between EA and the language of choice is pretty much automatic.</p>
<p>My problem with this is that kind of defeats the purpose of the model which is to abstract the solution at a higher level to take a look at the overall patterns and architecture.</p>
<p>As for Folwers comments I agreed with him when his article was written 3 years ago. Now I belive the languages and tools have invalidated his arguments against UML PIM.</p>
<p>In order to define a successfull Enterprise LOB you must take into account all architectures that could be helpful to you.  At that level a Language Specific modelling tool like a DSL is too close to a given architecture and solution to help.  I think the abstraction of UML helps define better applications.</p>
<p>BPML and BPEL are the tools that help define a better busines process.  I think EA has done a good job on incorporating those.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jarod</title>
		<link>http://elegantcode.com/2008/04/10/modeling-wars-great/comment-page-1/#comment-19684</link>
		<dc:creator>Jarod</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Apr 2008 02:40:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://elegantcode.com/2008/04/10/modeling-wars-great/#comment-19684</guid>
		<description>Daryl, we have EA at my work. I am &#039;somewhat&#039; familiar with it and dont particularly care for it. &#039;Import/Export&#039; template generation is not the same a MDD-&gt;DSL. I will say I have not had the time to seriously sit down and grok the tool, mostly because I am turned off by it. 

The UML PIM Camp vs Model Driven Development
http://martinfowler.com/articles/mdaLanguageWorkbench.html

I am not advocating a &#039;skilled business line manager&#039; changing the architecture with a model on the fly, as the original article that Dave posted suggests MS is aiming for. But at the same time, Im sure you can agree, defining a successful business process &#039;model&#039;  is far more important to the success of an enterprise LOB app than the technology that does the work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Daryl, we have EA at my work. I am &#8216;somewhat&#8217; familiar with it and dont particularly care for it. &#8216;Import/Export&#8217; template generation is not the same a MDD-&gt;DSL. I will say I have not had the time to seriously sit down and grok the tool, mostly because I am turned off by it. </p>
<p>The UML PIM Camp vs Model Driven Development<br />
<a href="http://martinfowler.com/articles/mdaLanguageWorkbench.html" rel="nofollow">http://martinfowler.com/articles/mdaLanguageWorkbench.html</a></p>
<p>I am not advocating a &#8216;skilled business line manager&#8217; changing the architecture with a model on the fly, as the original article that Dave posted suggests MS is aiming for. But at the same time, Im sure you can agree, defining a successful business process &#8216;model&#8217;  is far more important to the success of an enterprise LOB app than the technology that does the work.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: dcarver</title>
		<link>http://elegantcode.com/2008/04/10/modeling-wars-great/comment-page-1/#comment-19682</link>
		<dc:creator>dcarver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Apr 2008 23:57:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://elegantcode.com/2008/04/10/modeling-wars-great/#comment-19682</guid>
		<description>@Mike

Although I like Don and agree he is smart, if you want to talk modeling and quote an authority I am sorry but for me you will have to pick one of the 3 amigos and preferably Grady Bouch.  There is one smart dude.

@Jarod

I am not sure where the perception has come from that UML does not allow good round trip Engineering.  Take a look at the Enterprise Architect product line from Sparx Systems.  Full roundtrip engineering, integration into eclipse and Visual Studio and support for multiple languages and platforms not just .NET.  All for under $300 for a Enterprise tool  This is UML based and not vendor specific.  It provides code generation along the lines of the DSL tools MS has.  Very cool.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Mike</p>
<p>Although I like Don and agree he is smart, if you want to talk modeling and quote an authority I am sorry but for me you will have to pick one of the 3 amigos and preferably Grady Bouch.  There is one smart dude.</p>
<p>@Jarod</p>
<p>I am not sure where the perception has come from that UML does not allow good round trip Engineering.  Take a look at the Enterprise Architect product line from Sparx Systems.  Full roundtrip engineering, integration into eclipse and Visual Studio and support for multiple languages and platforms not just .NET.  All for under $300 for a Enterprise tool  This is UML based and not vendor specific.  It provides code generation along the lines of the DSL tools MS has.  Very cool.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jarod</title>
		<link>http://elegantcode.com/2008/04/10/modeling-wars-great/comment-page-1/#comment-19671</link>
		<dc:creator>Jarod</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Apr 2008 16:22:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://elegantcode.com/2008/04/10/modeling-wars-great/#comment-19671</guid>
		<description>UML will be trashed for MDD/DSL. New modelling language will be a re-entrant artifact which stays in sync with code (it IS the code), where as UML is troubled because it is seperate and always seems to veer off on its own path without regard to what the code is really doing, esp in agile.

UML will be changed to WML- Whiteboard Modelling Language :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>UML will be trashed for MDD/DSL. New modelling language will be a re-entrant artifact which stays in sync with code (it IS the code), where as UML is troubled because it is seperate and always seems to veer off on its own path without regard to what the code is really doing, esp in agile.</p>
<p>UML will be changed to WML- Whiteboard Modelling Language <img src='http://elegantcode.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Mike Moore</title>
		<link>http://elegantcode.com/2008/04/10/modeling-wars-great/comment-page-1/#comment-19670</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Moore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Apr 2008 15:48:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://elegantcode.com/2008/04/10/modeling-wars-great/#comment-19670</guid>
		<description>The more I learn of Lisp, the more important and less &quot;cute&quot; it becomes. But I don&#039;t want to freak anyone out here, so I&#039;ll point to this article by Don Box (who is awesomely smart and works for Microsoft) from the MSDN Magazine:

http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/magazine/cc163729.aspx

I hope that these sources are deemed credible enough to read the article with an open mind. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The more I learn of Lisp, the more important and less &#8220;cute&#8221; it becomes. But I don&#8217;t want to freak anyone out here, so I&#8217;ll point to this article by Don Box (who is awesomely smart and works for Microsoft) from the MSDN Magazine:</p>
<p><a href="http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/magazine/cc163729.aspx" rel="nofollow">http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/magazine/cc163729.aspx</a></p>
<p>I hope that these sources are deemed credible enough to read the article with an open mind. <img src='http://elegantcode.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Paul Kinlan&#8217;s Development Blog &#187; Development Link Goodness 11th April 2008</title>
		<link>http://elegantcode.com/2008/04/10/modeling-wars-great/comment-page-1/#comment-19658</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Kinlan&#8217;s Development Blog &#187; Development Link Goodness 11th April 2008</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Apr 2008 08:11:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://elegantcode.com/2008/04/10/modeling-wars-great/#comment-19658</guid>
		<description>[...] David Starr of Elegant Code writes: Modeling Wars. Great..[sic] [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] David Starr of Elegant Code writes: Modeling Wars. Great..[sic] [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: dcarver</title>
		<link>http://elegantcode.com/2008/04/10/modeling-wars-great/comment-page-1/#comment-19655</link>
		<dc:creator>dcarver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Apr 2008 06:14:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://elegantcode.com/2008/04/10/modeling-wars-great/#comment-19655</guid>
		<description>I think the strongest point for UML is it is not vendor specific.  Modeling makes sense when you can abastract the model from the code and talk about the essentials of the software no matter what is developed in.  You can see patterns and apply patterns to code and systems.

MSML will be vendor specific, and while that is helpful if you only live in a MS world it is not realistic in Enterprise software.   That is why I think UML will survive.  It is capable of modeling the real enterprise software environment that is not vendor specific.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the strongest point for UML is it is not vendor specific.  Modeling makes sense when you can abastract the model from the code and talk about the essentials of the software no matter what is developed in.  You can see patterns and apply patterns to code and systems.</p>
<p>MSML will be vendor specific, and while that is helpful if you only live in a MS world it is not realistic in Enterprise software.   That is why I think UML will survive.  It is capable of modeling the real enterprise software environment that is not vendor specific.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

