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trasa — Thu, 01 Jan 2009 19:47:20 +0000

@Jiang 2: And perhaps I should clarify: If I can find a poor example of WebForms, would that really prove anything?

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trasa — Thu, 01 Jan 2009 19:42:27 +0000

@Jiang: Poor code can be written in any platform. What’s your point?

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Jiang — Thu, 01 Jan 2009 18:01:15 +0000

@Trasa: can microsoft asp.net team fix the leaky part of webform? Why don’t they fix their stuff before they throw money into something that has already been created in PHP, Java and the like? Take a look at some of the asp.net mvc implementation of theBeerHouse, http://www.codeplex.com/TheBeerHouse/SourceControl/changeset/view/44960#690920

I have to say that it makes me puke. That code looks ugly, primitive. It looks like the php code I am maintaining and it makes me sick and adding new functionality that usually takes very little time with asp.net webform become a major undertaking with php.

Please take a look at the thebeerhouse asp.net mvc implementation and tell me that’s the code you guys want to write and maintain.

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trasa — Wed, 31 Dec 2008 22:05:55 +0000

@Jiang: As somebody who has been working with .NET since the betas, and did “classic” VB6/ASP before that, all I want to add is: “You’re wrong.”

The problem with WebForms is that it is too much of an abstraction, and a leaky one at that. Sure, if you’ve put the time into really understanding the page life cycle, you can get work done. But don’t mistake familiarity for an innate quality.

MVC and WebForms aren’t going anywhere, we’ll be using both where appropriate for a long time.

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Jiang — Wed, 31 Dec 2008 20:05:30 +0000

Looks like those who don’t like webforms really didn’t go beyond little drag-and-drop demos. People who have gone all the way through webform will laugh their heads off about you MVC guys grunt against Web Forms. If you look at the ASP.NET MVC code, it reminds you of asp and spaghetti code.

Microsoft has touted asp.net webform as MVC before in their pattern practice group. In my view, it’s a much better abstraction. All you need to do is to make webform better instead of abandoning it.

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jiang — Wed, 31 Dec 2008 01:01:51 +0000

Any person who has a business mindset will not use asp.net mvc before it has cycled through sp1. You put your business in jeopardy. MVC is not new, but Microsoft has to come up with better development support before it can sell this technology. It has to be something you configure and drag-and-drop and those tedious, repetitive code should be generated for you. Anyone just enjoy typing code, not the result should not be assigned any important role in IT related software development. Reserve the fast code typist for low level, C/C type of project, not the IT related projects.

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Dew Drop - December 29, 2008 | Alvin Ashcraft's Morning Dew — Mon, 29 Dec 2008 22:26:03 +0000

[...] What Would You Choose for New .NET Web Development? (Davy Brion) [...]

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Chris — Mon, 29 Dec 2008 18:13:45 +0000

lol..i had actually typed something to the effect of MSTest is a piece of shit but then deleted it figuring i’d try to be a little kinder…

that said, i’d pick anything other than webforms. ASP.NET Ajax(think MSTest) is tacked ontop of asp.net webforms, so is gaiaware. jQuery and Prototype/Scriptaculous solutions do everything better than ASP.NET Ajax, gaiware does the same thing as ASP.NET Ajax, except it’s called gaiaware, both of them have to have something on the backend to answer all of those ajax requests, which judging from the runat=server attributes, is asp.net webforms.

however, all of this depends on the app you’re building. Just a quick little demo for a customer? I’ll whip up some screens using webforms and mostly straight up html(ie no server controls). small little app that doesn’t plan on growing and has little use? prolly webforms html again. An app with any complexity and needs the ability to grow in size and complexity? MVC(any flavor) fo sho.

-c

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Davy Brion — Mon, 29 Dec 2008 17:50:46 +0000

well yeah, NUnit (and the others) are doing fine…. but MSTest is still a piece of shit though (IMO)

ASP.NET MVC is a lot better in what it tries to accomplish than MSTest is, so the comparison doesn’t really hold up

i agree that competition is great and necessary, and i really hope that MonoRail remains under active development. Ken Egozi (the MonoRail maintainer) has already assured me that that is his goal as well.

If that is indeed the case, then MonoRail is an excellent option as well.

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Stian Solberg — Mon, 29 Dec 2008 17:47:22 +0000

I’m biased, but I think our framework, Gaia Ajax is worth to mention in regards to a fresh start on ASP.NET.
Make faster web apps, with less code and no JavaScript at all.
Still have full control.
Check our samples for upcoming release: http://sandbox.gaiaware.net/themis-beta2/

And we’re Open Source, if you are building open source, we are free as well.