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	<title>Comments on: Why Developers Hate WF and Why They Should Get Over It</title>
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		<title>By: Re: Ping! : talk bizarre</title>
		<link>http://elegantcode.com/2009/04/05/why-developers-hate-wf-and-why-they-should-get-over-it/comment-page-2/#comment-45860</link>
		<dc:creator>Re: Ping! : talk bizarre</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 May 2009 10:13:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://elegantcode.com/2009/04/05/why-developers-hate-wf-and-why-they-should-get-over-it/#comment-45860</guid>
		<description>[...] Why Developers Hate WF and Why They Should Get Over It &#124; Elegant Code [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Why Developers Hate WF and Why They Should Get Over It | Elegant Code [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Earwicker</title>
		<link>http://elegantcode.com/2009/04/05/why-developers-hate-wf-and-why-they-should-get-over-it/comment-page-2/#comment-45692</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Earwicker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Apr 2009 21:52:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://elegantcode.com/2009/04/05/why-developers-hate-wf-and-why-they-should-get-over-it/#comment-45692</guid>
		<description>I only looked briefly at the Sharepoint workflow features - long enough to get the impression that they had solved the problem a different way, with something more boiled-down and targeted to their users&#039; needs, which makes perfect sense. But what does this tell us about the reusable WF designer, or the runtime model it is based on? I&#039;d say: not much.

I think a nice example of a highly targeted workflow designer from Microsoft is the Outlook Rules Wizard - it&#039;s a very nice, self-explanatory dialog for creating a filtering algorithm. If you want to expose configuration flexibility that has algorithmic decision-making power in it, that&#039;s the kind of thing to go for, I think. Start with a clear problem definition, insert flexibility into it where necessary and guide the user through the resulting pattern, letting them fill in the blanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I only looked briefly at the Sharepoint workflow features &#8211; long enough to get the impression that they had solved the problem a different way, with something more boiled-down and targeted to their users&#8217; needs, which makes perfect sense. But what does this tell us about the reusable WF designer, or the runtime model it is based on? I&#8217;d say: not much.</p>
<p>I think a nice example of a highly targeted workflow designer from Microsoft is the Outlook Rules Wizard &#8211; it&#8217;s a very nice, self-explanatory dialog for creating a filtering algorithm. If you want to expose configuration flexibility that has algorithmic decision-making power in it, that&#8217;s the kind of thing to go for, I think. Start with a clear problem definition, insert flexibility into it where necessary and guide the user through the resulting pattern, letting them fill in the blanks.</p>
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		<title>By: links for 2009-04-08 &#171; pabloidz</title>
		<link>http://elegantcode.com/2009/04/05/why-developers-hate-wf-and-why-they-should-get-over-it/comment-page-2/#comment-45236</link>
		<dc:creator>links for 2009-04-08 &#171; pabloidz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Apr 2009 12:03:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://elegantcode.com/2009/04/05/why-developers-hate-wf-and-why-they-should-get-over-it/#comment-45236</guid>
		<description>[...] Why Developers Hate WF and Why They Should Get Over It Elegant Code (tags: workflow programming) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Why Developers Hate WF and Why They Should Get Over It Elegant Code (tags: workflow programming) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://elegantcode.com/2009/04/05/why-developers-hate-wf-and-why-they-should-get-over-it/comment-page-2/#comment-45221</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Apr 2009 01:56:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://elegantcode.com/2009/04/05/why-developers-hate-wf-and-why-they-should-get-over-it/#comment-45221</guid>
		<description>#3 is not  why we hate them.  It is because of the perceived value.  If you look at the total cost, total ROI and typical duplication it would have been better for the org to hire competent developers or additional competent developers. (case in point - See this months VS Mag &quot;Coding Catastrophes)  Sadly, many developers are not as qualified as super users.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#3 is not  why we hate them.  It is because of the perceived value.  If you look at the total cost, total ROI and typical duplication it would have been better for the org to hire competent developers or additional competent developers. (case in point &#8211; See this months VS Mag &#8220;Coding Catastrophes)  Sadly, many developers are not as qualified as super users.</p>
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		<title>By: Robin Clowers</title>
		<link>http://elegantcode.com/2009/04/05/why-developers-hate-wf-and-why-they-should-get-over-it/comment-page-1/#comment-45218</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin Clowers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Apr 2009 21:42:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://elegantcode.com/2009/04/05/why-developers-hate-wf-and-why-they-should-get-over-it/#comment-45218</guid>
		<description>I totally agree with Daniel, WF is a horrible tool for devs and too complex for Business Users.  I have not used SharePoint Designer, but I can tell you that building a workflow of any real complexity in Visual Studio will cause you to run into undocumented &quot;features&quot;, make simple things hard and generally make you want to never use the technology again.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I totally agree with Daniel, WF is a horrible tool for devs and too complex for Business Users.  I have not used SharePoint Designer, but I can tell you that building a workflow of any real complexity in Visual Studio will cause you to run into undocumented &#8220;features&#8221;, make simple things hard and generally make you want to never use the technology again.</p>
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		<title>By: Marc Briand</title>
		<link>http://elegantcode.com/2009/04/05/why-developers-hate-wf-and-why-they-should-get-over-it/comment-page-1/#comment-45213</link>
		<dc:creator>Marc Briand</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Apr 2009 18:11:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://elegantcode.com/2009/04/05/why-developers-hate-wf-and-why-they-should-get-over-it/#comment-45213</guid>
		<description>I know this is a stupid question, but WTF does WF stand for?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I know this is a stupid question, but WTF does WF stand for?</p>
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		<title>By: David Starr</title>
		<link>http://elegantcode.com/2009/04/05/why-developers-hate-wf-and-why-they-should-get-over-it/comment-page-1/#comment-45212</link>
		<dc:creator>David Starr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Apr 2009 16:10:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://elegantcode.com/2009/04/05/why-developers-hate-wf-and-why-they-should-get-over-it/#comment-45212</guid>
		<description>@jim - Yes, Windows Workflow Foundation. Sorry for that noob error.

@daniel - OK, that&#039;s totally fair. What about the WF enabling inside SharePoint? Do you think that is beyond the HR intern? I don&#039;t think the Visual Studio designer is for BAs, either.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@jim &#8211; Yes, Windows Workflow Foundation. Sorry for that noob error.</p>
<p>@daniel &#8211; OK, that&#8217;s totally fair. What about the WF enabling inside SharePoint? Do you think that is beyond the HR intern? I don&#8217;t think the Visual Studio designer is for BAs, either.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim R. Wilson</title>
		<link>http://elegantcode.com/2009/04/05/why-developers-hate-wf-and-why-they-should-get-over-it/comment-page-1/#comment-45209</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim R. Wilson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Apr 2009 14:10:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://elegantcode.com/2009/04/05/why-developers-hate-wf-and-why-they-should-get-over-it/#comment-45209</guid>
		<description>Hi there.  I really enjoyed most of the article, especially the parts about how these non-programmer created applications create a lot of business value.  I think developers can lose sight of that when faced with the incomprehensible maw of an unwieldy app.

The only criticism I have is that you never define the acronym &quot;WF&quot;.  Based on a tentative google search, I assume you mean &quot;Workflow Foundation&quot;, but I&#039;m not a Windows developer, so it&#039;s hard to say.  Most of your target audience already knows what WF stands for, and for those that don&#039;t, spelling it out doesn&#039;t hurt.

Anyway, thanks again.  Sorry I can&#039;t comment on the actual point of the article, but I feel the introductory portions are spot on. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi there.  I really enjoyed most of the article, especially the parts about how these non-programmer created applications create a lot of business value.  I think developers can lose sight of that when faced with the incomprehensible maw of an unwieldy app.</p>
<p>The only criticism I have is that you never define the acronym &#8220;WF&#8221;.  Based on a tentative google search, I assume you mean &#8220;Workflow Foundation&#8221;, but I&#8217;m not a Windows developer, so it&#8217;s hard to say.  Most of your target audience already knows what WF stands for, and for those that don&#8217;t, spelling it out doesn&#8217;t hurt.</p>
<p>Anyway, thanks again.  Sorry I can&#8217;t comment on the actual point of the article, but I feel the introductory portions are spot on. <img src='http://elegantcode.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Earwicker</title>
		<link>http://elegantcode.com/2009/04/05/why-developers-hate-wf-and-why-they-should-get-over-it/comment-page-1/#comment-45206</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Earwicker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Apr 2009 11:06:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://elegantcode.com/2009/04/05/why-developers-hate-wf-and-why-they-should-get-over-it/#comment-45206</guid>
		<description>The title of this post is deliberately provocative, but as a result I think it misses the point about WF.

I was interested in WF (and remain interested in where it goes next) _precisely because_ it promised to give an easy-to-grasp UI to non-programmers to allow them to create custom business logic by plugging together components.

I was disappointed by it _precisely because_ it failed to deliver this. In all the useful demos I&#039;ve seen, and in all attempts I&#039;ve seen to make it work in practise, it was necessary for the end user to crank out some code-behind in VB or C#.

And the headline pitch you describe - &quot;accessible to non-programmers&quot; - completely collapsed when I spoke to the relevant folks at MS back in 1997. Here&#039;s a blog post from Paul Andrews, PM at the time, that lays it on the line:

http://blogs.msdn.com/pandrew/archive/2007/01/16/how-does-windows-workflow-foundation-wf-compare-to-product-x.aspx

Key quote: &quot;The workflow designer is best suited to developers, not business analysts.&quot;

So what good is it? I&#039;m already skilled in using real programming languages, and in return I can depend on proven techniques for code reuse (methods I can call, classes I can inherit, generic types I can instantiate, etc.), and I also get a state of the art debugging experience. If I try using WF, I get to use &quot;experimental&quot; code reuse features, and I get a crummy debugging experience.

Unless it opens up some aspect of the development process to non-programmers, deskilling it somehow, it has no purpose. Users who already know how to code will be better off writing elegant, readable code.

So I hope that this changes or is already changing for 4.0.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The title of this post is deliberately provocative, but as a result I think it misses the point about WF.</p>
<p>I was interested in WF (and remain interested in where it goes next) _precisely because_ it promised to give an easy-to-grasp UI to non-programmers to allow them to create custom business logic by plugging together components.</p>
<p>I was disappointed by it _precisely because_ it failed to deliver this. In all the useful demos I&#8217;ve seen, and in all attempts I&#8217;ve seen to make it work in practise, it was necessary for the end user to crank out some code-behind in VB or C#.</p>
<p>And the headline pitch you describe &#8211; &#8220;accessible to non-programmers&#8221; &#8211; completely collapsed when I spoke to the relevant folks at MS back in 1997. Here&#8217;s a blog post from Paul Andrews, PM at the time, that lays it on the line:</p>
<p><a href="http://blogs.msdn.com/pandrew/archive/2007/01/16/how-does-windows-workflow-foundation-wf-compare-to-product-x.aspx" rel="nofollow">http://blogs.msdn.com/pandrew/archive/2007/01/16/how-does-windows-workflow-foundation-wf-compare-to-product-x.aspx</a></p>
<p>Key quote: &#8220;The workflow designer is best suited to developers, not business analysts.&#8221;</p>
<p>So what good is it? I&#8217;m already skilled in using real programming languages, and in return I can depend on proven techniques for code reuse (methods I can call, classes I can inherit, generic types I can instantiate, etc.), and I also get a state of the art debugging experience. If I try using WF, I get to use &#8220;experimental&#8221; code reuse features, and I get a crummy debugging experience.</p>
<p>Unless it opens up some aspect of the development process to non-programmers, deskilling it somehow, it has no purpose. Users who already know how to code will be better off writing elegant, readable code.</p>
<p>So I hope that this changes or is already changing for 4.0.</p>
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		<title>By: Arjan`s World &#187; LINKBLOG for April 6, 2009</title>
		<link>http://elegantcode.com/2009/04/05/why-developers-hate-wf-and-why-they-should-get-over-it/comment-page-1/#comment-45189</link>
		<dc:creator>Arjan`s World &#187; LINKBLOG for April 6, 2009</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Apr 2009 12:53:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://elegantcode.com/2009/04/05/why-developers-hate-wf-and-why-they-should-get-over-it/#comment-45189</guid>
		<description>[...] Why Developers Hate WF and Why They Should Get Over It - David Starr &#8216; Yahoo Pipes not only opened up backend processing for the masses, but it did so online. Now my mom isn’t just drag and dropping UIs, she is doing it with data feeds &#8216; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Why Developers Hate WF and Why They Should Get Over It &#8211; David Starr &#8216; Yahoo Pipes not only opened up backend processing for the masses, but it did so online. Now my mom isn’t just drag and dropping UIs, she is doing it with data feeds &#8216; [...]</p>
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